Phillies Nation

97 Responses to “Beerman’s Report Card: Cliff Lee Trade”

1. Don M Says:
   March 4th, 2010 at 10:49 am

   was this even neccesary? . . .

   not to be a d!ck, but im pretty sure we’ve all talked enough about this trade over the past 2-3 months

   including just the other day.

   ..

   I didn’t even read this post, but the fact that it is here, gets an F

2. NJ Says:
   March 4th, 2010 at 10:53 am

   And the obvious was missed which is going to lead to a cascade of moaning so I’ll get the opposite started…

   The Phillies traded for Halladay and traded away Lee because Halladay is a superior pitcher who has taken a contract far below market value. The Phillies had to get prospects immediately who could be expected to contribute in 2-3 years time when the Phils have to re-sign virtually every core player on the roster and need young players making the veteran minimum to do so. The Draft picks would not have yielded anywhere near the prospects we received from Seattle, take AJ Burnet for example- The Jays received the 37th and 99th picks. The Brewers received one of the 39th and 47th picks plus the 73rd for Sabathia. Would you still say you’d rather take picks like those?

   You can’t look at pitching prospect in terms of innings pitched in the minors, the more pitching the more wear on their arms. Aumont is a 6′7 power left with a fastball/sinker that might be the best of any pitching prospect and already has a plus curve, a massive K/9 rate and low ERA’s and WHIPs. Although he’s probably not going to be the player Taylor’s likely to be Gillies who coming over was considered to have a light stick has an OPS only about 30 pts than Taylor and has over 100 walks 70 RBI’s and 70 steals in 230 games. Ramirez is a prospect some like Keith Law thought was the best in the deal.

   Who was going to give a better deal (because the draft picks were not an option)… Boston? NYY? LAA? none of them were going to give a prospect as promising as Aumont other than Westmorland if we were lucky and nothing more. Then who else could have put together a package superior to Seattle’s? LAD? ChiSox? Rockies? None of them had a comparable package.

   If you say what’s more important 2010 or 2014 than that is the very definition of front-running. The Phillies right now can be every bit as competitive in 2014 as they are now with a farm that is developing prospects like few others in the game. Had we kept Lee for this year and let him walk the door of opportunity would have slammed shut after the 2012 season because the Phils would be forced to not re-sign or sign stars because of having to spend millions in payroll on role players.

   It’s not an F, It’s not an A, right now it’s a C that was necessary that could eventually become a B or higher in time and the Phils are every bit as capable winning this year. Halladay/Lee was not going to win a WS, so many other things are going to come into it.

3. NJ Says:
   March 4th, 2010 at 10:54 am

   Don M- whats your 2 cents on the actually post Halladay deal sending Lee to Seattle considering the short and long-term implications on prospects and payroll vs the draft picks or what we could have got elsewhere?

4. Chuck Says:
   March 4th, 2010 at 10:54 am

   Don, you beat me to it.

   I don’t even know where to start there are so many ridiculous questions.

   So …….for now …….I’ll just think about it and maybe respond later.

   But one thing is for sure….not only is the “dead horse beaten”……the poor thing is now a rotting carcass.

   And I guess I’m a d!ck as well for even saying this.

5. Jonathan Says:
   March 4th, 2010 at 10:55 am

   You mentioned a rotation of Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Blanton, and Happ, but considering the Phillies payroll, currently over $140 mil, it would not necessarily have been Lee or Halladay but Lee or Blanton. Yes, Lee is a much better pitcher than Joe Blanton, but the truth is that you can only afford one for this year, and Amaro went with the guy that he could have for more than this year–Blanton.
   I think something Amaro will never admit is that his mission is to consistently put a better team out on the field each year. So we are not as good as we could be–Halladay and Lee would be insane–but we are still better than last year. And if we kept Lee (and lost Blanton), it would be extremely, EXTREMELY, difficult to put out a better team in 2011. You see this revitalized excitement in spring training this year. The morale has never been higher. The guys we have are working harder to become stars (Hamels, Happ, Kendrick).
   He’s not just replenishing a farm system. He’s building a team that feels like it has a better chance to win every year, even it achieves the ultimate goal every year.

6. NJ Says:
   March 4th, 2010 at 10:56 am

   ^Oh it wasn’t Pedro that lost us the World Series. Lee along side Halladay might have been 1 more win and we still lose because of bullpen management and TERRIBLE situational hitting.

7. NJ Says:
   March 4th, 2010 at 11:06 am

   I usually like Beerman’s writings for a chuckle but come on Pat or someone else needs to be writing this, you have to show the two sides of a the coin and have you facts straight, if not just to prove how right your are…

   “If Lee walked after this year, the Phillies would have received two-first round picks.”

   You look at the Sabathia and Burnett signings and you should be able to see those picks were likely to be so far from two first round picks it would make your head spin. It wasn’t the two first rounders the Bears received for Cutler you can hang your hat on. Amaro came out and said it would have been a likely very late 1st round pick if not a 2nd or 3rd plus a sandwich pick which isn’t a first round pick.

8. Chuck Says:
   March 4th, 2010 at 11:11 am

   NJ…

   Amidst all the “beating of the dead horse”…you know debating the SAME OLD STUFF…..answering the SAME QUESTIONS……

   ……you made a statement that is so telling and so obvious….”If you say what’s more important 2010 or 2014 then that is the very definition of front-running”

9. Chuck Says:
   March 4th, 2010 at 11:13 am

   Yeah, what about Howard’s AWFUL performance in the WS…..I guess that had NOTHING to to with why we lost..

10. The Dipsy Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:17 am

    NJ – I posted an article a few months back that I thought did a good job of thoroughly dissecting, in excrutiating detail, the logistics of the two deals. I believe in that scenario more today than when it was written. Google it (if you want or if you care), or I don’t know if you can get it on PN, but I think you were on holiday when it posted.

    I view the Halladay/Lee deal as one deal, not two. To grade it separately is a bit misleading, but if you were to do that, as Beerman has, it would certainly deserves a bad grade. For better of for worse, the two deals will always be married to each other.

    That said, The Phillies are a better team as a result of the two trades. They got the better pitcher and for the better price. I don’t really feel the need to grade these deals when 6 of the 8 guys involved haven’t played a day in the majors yet.

    The Dipsy

11. Chuck Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:17 am

    Oh, and you say that “money should never be an option”

    YES, it should!! I don’t want payroll to skyrocket to the point where the stadium is”sold out nearly every night” only to people that can afford very expensive seats.

    Because if you don’t manage payroll…EVERY YEAR…..and have some financial discipline……then that’s what will happen.

12. Andrew R. Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:21 am

    One of the dumbest posts on this site. In fact, this whole “grading system” is a pretty dumb idea. Let’s grade the Phillies 2010-2019 seasons now while we’re at it.

    This Lee-Halladay shit is getting real old. We all know the arguments for and against. Leave it alone. I swear I’ve never seen so many people bitch and moan when their team is really putting together a nice run.

    We ended up with the better pitcher. A pitcher who is in the midst of what could be a HOF career, while the other guy only really had 3 good seasons in the majors.

    Ruben did the right thing. Leave it alone already.

13. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:22 am

    Sorry I just get really riled up by this Halladay/Lee/Drabek/Aumont argument because I think the Phils both long and short-term come out way ahead… I’m happy to have the other side of the argument given it’s due but it’s ALWAYS completely one sided when that sides being discussed.

14. Heather Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:23 am

    Point of order: Pedro pitched well enough in WS Game 2 that we could have won if the Phillies had scored at least a few runs. So stop blaming everything on Pedro. Next…

    I have said it before and I will say again there was “something else” going on with the Lee trade. That’s the only way it makes sense. Maybe Lee royally pi$$ed off management and the order was given to dump him immediately. Maybe the Mariners have a secret handshake deal they’ll give Lee to the Phils in July for peanuts if they’re not contending. I really don’t know what the “something else” is but otherwise this deal makes no sense.

    I will go so far as to buy the “replenishing the farm system” argument but 1 year of Cliff Lee for $9M should buy you better prospects than what the Phils got from the Mariners. Again, MHO is there was “something else” going on here.

15. Chuck Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:24 am

    Andrew….didn’t you know….this is Philly. People are gonna constantly bitch. Remember, The Pope and Santa Claus nearly got run out of town.

16. Chuck Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:26 am

    “Something else”????

    So I guess there’s some kind of secret underground plot unfolding.

17. The Beerman Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:30 am

    I was going to sit back and just keep reading some of these comments.

    So I have to ask people. Its mid July. The Phillies are 2 games up in the division. Seattle calls, “we’ll give you cliff lee for aumont, gillies and ramirez.”

    All you people who defend this trade say no right?

18. Publius Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:33 am

    If a commenter brought up this trade again, they’d probably get yelled at (and rightly so). But hey, you’re a contributor so apparently you get free reign. This has been discussed ad nauseum, nothing is going to change it, we’ll have to see how the season plays out, etc. etc. Try writing something more relevant next time.

19. bfo_33 Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:35 am

    Beerman – I generally enjoy your articles, but get over the Lee trade. In general, a poor analysis, fitting selective data to match your opinion. One point I feel a need to comment on (the rest have been rehashed, the anti Lee deal faction will never change their mind anyway) is that one thing Halladay brings that Lee didn’t is the ability and history of pitching on 3 days rest.

20. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:35 am

    Think the more relevant subject today is the best names for the Roy Halladay fan club or has that been discussed to death?

21. Chuck Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:38 am

    Because Seattle realistically is gonna do that?? You’ve got to be joking, right??

22. Don M Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:39 am

    My honest take on this is.. that while it would be AMAZING to have Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Blanton, Happ . . . it just wasn’t in the cards. We aren’t the Yankees, we don’t print our own money, etc

    The Phillies have done a GREAT job of spending wisely, and giving us GREAT product over the past few seasons (really since the Thome deal/new stadium) .. but as of last week, the stadium was already SOLD OUT for like 72 of their 81 games??

    SO they’ll be at max capacity… pretty much everyone has enough Phillies shirts/hats, etc. that the “BOOM” for that stuff has already reached its max after their two straight World Series runs.. . ..

    so knowing that they won’t be bringing in too much more money than what they have been… and knowing that if they tried to keep this team in tact, that not only would they have to jack up prices, etc.. but that it would really limit how good they are once this core moves on..

    We got the better of the two pitchers in Halladay.. and locked him into an extension.

    We got prospects in return for Lee, instead of two draft picks (since draft picks don’t mean sh1t in baseball, I like the prospects)… the draft picks vs. an extra year of Lee?? It sure looks terrible/frustrating/annoying right now . . . but if ANY or ALL of those three players makes it to the majors (where they’ll be under team control for 6 years.. ) .. then it gives us a better chance to keep Cole Hamels, Ryan Howard, JA Happ, etc.. when their next contracts come due.

    every team needs to have its fair share of $400,000 – to $4 Million players on the team, because you can’t build long term success if the average player on your team makes $$ Double-digit Millions per year

    …

    since we JUST won the World Series.. there shouldn’t be this sense of “ALL IN” that so many of our fans have.. They are trying to become the Braves of the 1990s.. giving us a very good chance to be competitive and have a chance at the World Series every year.. I want us to have a good team for years and year more than I want to just raise the Trophy this year

    ..and this isn’t a case of “well the Eagles do that every year and we hate that” … because, again, the Phillies JUST won the World Series.

    Their BRAINS have proven to me (and Im not sure what else they need to prove to some of you????) that they know what players they want, they know which puzzle pieces will fit, they know when to let guys walk .. Pat Burrell.. .. they have proven that they know what their doing .. and they have my trust and my support as a fan

23. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:39 am

    If Seattle are out the race at the deadline their most likely to deal Lee and for less.

24. The Dipsy Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:48 am

    Does anyone know whether Cliff has a “no trade” claus?

    The Dipsy

25. The Beerman Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:51 am

    Don’t think he does Dipsy, considering he said he was blind-sided by this one.

26. Geoff Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:51 am

    this is why sports are ridiculous to a degree. ENJOY THE GAMES, its a nice distraction from the daily rat race. Enjoy that.

    It is pathetic that people are still obsessing over something that is OVER. The trade makes perfect sense if you want stability at the front of the rotation for years to come, who cares which guy is there to give it to you?

    This is literally the same as complaining that your team traded Peyton Manning for Tom Brady. Its ABSURD.

    Enjoy the games, guys, this is a great time to be a fan!

    Yes this is the same Geoff, I just have a better outlook about all this than years past.

27. John Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:55 am

    The thing I like about the Lee trade was that Ruben went out and got professional ball players, and was able to be selective. (Guys who have actually made it beyond the HS or collegiate level) Not knowing who will be available in the draft or which picks you will receive really takes the Phils out of the driver seat. Certainly money always is the main driving factor, it seems like RAJ didn’t feel he’d be able to resign Lee to a deal he felt was of fair value/length, so he did the next best thing, maximized his return. Sure, he probably could’ve gotten some major leaguers, but really, who do we need? More bench players? A pen arm? To me, that’s just as much of a risk as a few high-ceiling minor leaguers.

    NJ – I hereby submit for nomination “Leroy’s Loonies”

28. Manny Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:56 am

    The Cliff Lee deal baffled me the second I heard it in the news. My gut reaction was “this is bad” and I still feel that way, especially with those prospects we got for an elite ace who was making only $9 million a year!! Just that thought makes me cringe. If you HAD to make a deal, at least get some prospects that are less of question marks and are closer to the big leagues –to fill the void the Halladay part of the deal left. Now we have even more super raw prospects who’ve never played in AA! Whoohoo!

    We blinked when we had a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I really hope that doesn’t come back and hurt us because it will be the type of thing that will never go away in our minds.

29. Christian Michael Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 11:59 am

    Guys. Listen. It WAS about three Mariners prospects versus a late, late, 1st round pick and a sandwhich pick if Lee walked.

    It WAS about the money, but not about the 9 million Lee would be making during the 2010 season.

    Amaro and the Phillies work within a budget – just as all businesses do. By keeping Lee around for the 2010 season the Phillies would have had two big problems. 1.) Blanton would have been out of here. Not there is not any argument whatsoever regarding which pitcher is better. The thing is – take a look at the free agency market this past offseason and see which pitchers were hauling home contracts that paid them 10 or more million a year. That’s not even saying that the Phillies would have had the oppurtunity to sign two pitchers to replace Cliff Lee once he became a free agent. So instead of having a rotation of Halladay, Hamels and JA Happ as the ONLY solid starters, the Phils now have Halladay, Hamels, Blanton AND Happ for the next three years minimum. 2.) Lee needed to be traded when he did because of two words – COST CERTAINTY!. By trading Lee when he did Amaro was capable of LOCKING in (pretty much) what his payroll capabilities and budget would be in the following years. With Lee still on the team and the uncertainty regarding the Phils ability to resign him and ALSO sign a #3 or #4 starter Amaro is not able to extend Blanton for 3 years at a below market value. He is unable to extend Shane Victorino and Carlos Ruiz possibly. They also have Jayson Werth. And this is the key. By trading Lee and having the ability to look down the road at the money that IS or ISN’T available – Amaro can take a really good stab at maneuvering money and budget to allow for the resigning or exension of Jayson Werth.

    The cost certainty they received back in December was more important than Lee’s 9 million dollar salary in 2010, the two draft picks should he walk or the prospects they received.

    just my opinion.

30. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    Kyle Drabek games above A-Ball… 15
    Michael Taylor games above A-Ball… 116 in one season
    Travis D’Arnaud games above A-Ball… Zero

    Sure it was a lifetime opportunity but what after his contract runs out?

31. Ben Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 12:10 pm

    christian michael, i’d say it was just as important, otherwise great points.

32. beta sigma shag Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    I support the Lee trade, and when and why it was done. You do need a farm system, Blanton was going to get nothing in return. They offered Lee their best offer and he turned it down, that is how RAJ works, here is what we will pay you you don’t take then we look down the road. Lee only has his agent to blame if he is shocked he got traded. Also money does matter, I live in Vermont, and between Yankee fans and Red Sox fans most can not afford to go to a game in Boston or NY because the prices are crazy. It is cheaper for me to drive to PA for 8 to 10 games a year. I have the Sunday package. I could not afford to go to more than two games in cities that are closer. The idea is to stay competitive forever(I know that is unrealistic) but for the longest time possible. Do you want to be the Marlins or St. Louis, NY Boston, Angels, that compete every year for the playoffs and WS. Or a team that wins 2 WS in ten years and lose 90 games the other 8.
    I vote for playoffs every year.

33. BS Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    The Phillies have a stadium that is sold out nearly every night. Money should never be an option.

    Don’t take this personally Beerman, but the above was a dumb statement.

    There’s a limit to the number of seats. There’s a limit to the prices you can charge. Thus, there’s a limit to the money you can spend.

    Phillies attendance has gone up 16% over the past two years. Their payroll has gone up 40%. I used to knock Giles and co. for being stingy, rightly so. But now I’m giving credit where credit’s due.

34. Philly Texan Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    I agree with Dipsy. This was ONE TRADE. We dealt Lee, Drabek et al for Halladay, Aumont et al.

    And the Phillies are a better team after this deal b/c Halladay is a better pitcher in the regular season.

    Of course, Halladay can’t possibly improve on Lee’s postseason (though he might match it). But he will be more consistent in the regular season.

    I love Cliff Lee, but the guy has always been an extremely streaky pitcher. We saw that last year. He can be unhittable for a stretch and then give up 5 earned runs for three starts in a row. Halladay won’t do that.

    This trade was about improving the team for the regular year. It’s about getting back to the postseason and the World Series.

    And with that, I’m done with this subject for at least six months.

35. beta sigma shag Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    I know I will catch sht for this, but I said it at the time, Lee needs to be motivated to pitch well, after the trade he pitched 2 or 3 awsome games, then he had 3 bad starts in a row, I mean really bad starts where he got lit up. Then the playoffs and he was unhittable, with the exception of after the 6th in game five of the WS. Doc does not have that histroy of inconsistancy. I mean Lee was what 9-7 in argualble the worst division in baseball, because he was not focused and wanted out. Any chance the phillies saw this attitude before dealing him.

36. Therealbeernan Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    Honestly who cares give Bondo boy a break .I am the man who started Philliebeermantv so if you want to checkout my coverage from the 2009 World Series go to stickam.com/philliebeermantv

37. RichieAllen Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    I find it funny that anybody disagreeing with the Lee trade gets equated to the Santa Claus and Pope stuff.
    I also find it funny that anybody disagreeing is supposed to be a Philly hater and Halladay hater.
    Wow.

38. Bruce Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    “Beerman” made valid points and should be commended for doing so. Instead we have posters with criticism of the columnist that suggest that they are in a state of denial on possible repercussion of the Lee trade. Beerman asked a key question..” ..which year is more important right now, 2010 or 2014?” Considering the likelihood of losing key players to free agency in a few years, I choose 2010 with Holliday- Lee combo in rotation that send fears in the hearts of the opposition including the free spending Yankees. Plus if one were able to open the “books” of the $140 million payroll, I strongly suspect there are hoarded profits by the CEOs thanks to the river of revenue pouring in from all those sold out games, TV & radio networks, merchandise, etc. If the Phillies organization were to choose a different philosophy on spending (ala Yankees) in the coming years and make a commitment to reward and keeping their best players, the discussion on prospects here becomes moot.

39. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    Except to be able to keep your stars and throw your money around like your in a strip club you need role players on minimum salary… It’s how the Yankees have done it, buy big here and pay small everywhere else.

40. Dave Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 1:29 pm

    Great article. Who cares if it’s been discussed a million times? You are one of the few people who have asked the same question I’ve been asking: why do the trade on the same day? The ONLY reason is not one that was in the best interest of the team. It was the fan backlash. He could have gotten a WHOLE lot more if he waited. I really hope they need a pitcher at the deadline and Lee is the best available. You think we can get him back from Aumont, Gilles, and garbage? No chance. Amaro got fleeced.

41. Dave Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    BTW huge Halladay fan and a fan of every other offseason move. Reuben did good but its painful to give away Cliff Lee for nothing.

42. Vernon Dozier Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    There’s a limit to the number of seats that can be sold, but that hasn’t stopped the Phillies from looking at “creative” ways to bring in more money. I’ve ordered tickets for my department for the last six seasons. I annually order between 90-100 tickets (spread over 5-6 games). In the past, the Phillies have capped the processing fees for these types of orders at $30 + $5 shipping/handling. This season, they eliminated the $30 cap and tacked on the $4 fee to all 93 tickets that I ordered. A fee that was $35 last season became $377 this season.

43. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    To ALL of those who say we could have got a better package for Lee if we’d waited get off your high horses and tell us how… From who?

    Yankees= No
    Red Sox= No
    Angels= No
    Dodgers= No cause their prospects are no better than Seattles
    Colorado= No
    Atlanta= No
    Mets= No
    Giants= No

    Who else?

44. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    Oh Dave we should get a fan movement going to get RAJ fired and you sworn in as GM with “I really hope they need a pitcher at the deadline and Lee is the best available.”

    Phillies Nation- When you can come to discuss the Phillies with like minded fans, and also listen to the chorus of fans who might as well just admit they have a Mets jerseys on.

45. Heather Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    NJ-Why do you say all those teams wouldn’t give us a better package? I would think at least half of those teams you said NO about would be very interested in Cliff Lee for a year. Take, for example, Boston. The Sox would’ve been downright scary with Lee in the rotation in addition to all their other personnel. At that point, I think they would have become the favorites in the AL period. I think there is a chance they would have give up something decent to make that happen. Plus Boston has 4-5 prospects on the top 100 list depending on which list you check, so they had decent stuff to trade.

    Same thing with a lot of those other teams.

    I think Lee just wasn’t shopped to half of those teams….unless you have information to indicate otherwise?

46. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 2:28 pm

    Red Sox didn’t make a real move on Halladay and have been very conservative in what prospects they make available in the last two years, Westmorland would have been about the total value of what we could have got and that guys got more arm issues than a teenage kid with a stack of porn.

    Angels weren’t prepared to give up top pitching prospects.

    The Yankees weren’t shopping.

    All of those teams are going to take a look at Lee at the deadline and in the off-season depending on their situations but their not going to give up a good package and then pay him a ton in the off-season.

    Aumont and Gillies are expected to be top prospects, hell with Ramirez we took 3 of Seattles top 6 or 7 prospects in one go. It was a much better deal than is given credit.

47. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 2:34 pm

    ^I think there’s anger over the Halladay deal with fans seeing two top 50 prospects going to Toronto and expecting the same kind of deal in return when it was two different situations in baseball terms.

    All we did was take 3 higher upside prospects (two very high) quickly than one more developed prospect who’s name we could get a woody over and junk with it.

    I looked into Aumont with curiosity when Seattle drafted him, he is every bit the prospect to start falling in love with and Gillies is a steal.

48. Chuck Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    I had heard when this deal went down that Ramirez was the guy that HAD to be included. So much focus has been on Aumont and to soem extent Gillies….but the Ramirez thing is interesting.

49. Ryan H Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    I am disappointed that we couldn’t have Halladay and Lee as most of you are too. But I actually but Ruben’s argument of replenishing the system. Fans are short sighted, GM’s have to forecast for 4 and 5 years into the future. Gillies and Aumont are highly rated prospects. Beerman is simply poo pooing them in his assessment and that is unfair. They are just as highly rated as Drabek and Taylor are. I really don’t believe the Lee trade was about the money. Because if it was simply dollars and cents they would have just paid lee 9 million and not offered a tender to Blanton. They looked into trading blanton before the lee trade and realized they couldn’t get the right prospects in return, so they knew they had to trade lee or else let him walk at the end of the year. and don’t act like draft picks are the same as already established minor league prospects. they are 3 or 4 years ahead of where a draft pick next year would be in their progress towards the majors. plus, Draft picks in baseball aren’t nearly as reliable as in the NFL. high picks are busts routinely. then you have guys like ryan howard and pujols who were picked way way way down in the lower rounds.

    I see the trade as Lee for Halladay. and that is most certainly an upgrade.

50. bfo_33 Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    I think there are valid issues with the Lee trade, and Beerman touched on a few, but mixed in too much speculation, and was very one sided in the opinion. Even Boston and the Yankees have a budget. They’d be a better team with Damon, but went with the cheaper option of Nick Johnson. Boston let Bay go. I also don’t think we are hearing the full story from Lee’s camp. What Lee understood may be very different from what Amaro heard from his camp (speculation on my part).

    At least two of the three guys we traded for Lee were MLB back-ups at best (I think Carrasco has a chance of being a middle rotation starter with the right pitching coach and some more time). That was with 1-1/2 yrs of a contract left. Why do you think he’d be worth more with only a year left? Maybe they could have gotten a little better deal if they waited, but it’s not like we would have gotten Jon Lester or Phil Hughes.

    I understand the disappointment, and am usually open minded to an intelligent argument – for or against moves made. Some sound like Rush Limbaugh – would rather have the administration fail to prove they were right than have a successful season.

51. Don M Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    yea if the RedSox and Yankees… didn’t want to give up their best prospects for Halladay.. or for 1.5 years of Cliff Lee

    why the hell would anyone think they’d be then willing to give up their best prospects for LESS time with Cliff Lee

    instead they’ll keep their prospects.. and target Lee this offseason.. which is the smart thing to do.

52. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    There’s been the suggestion the motivation behind dealing Lee was to save money, if anything it’s to spend money ensuring we have cheap major league viable talent to not have to go to the market and then spend all that tasty salary on penning Ryan Howard to a deal we’ll regret…

53. The Dipsy Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    NJ – Respectfully, you, nor anyone else outside of the organization, have any idea what the Phils were offered for Lee or what they could have gotten. Perhaps because RAJ never bothered to find out. The very idea that the Mariners were the only ones that would have been interesetd in Lee is ludicrous. IMO, the deal was orchestrated in no small part by Gillick, who has strong ties to all three teams, at the winter meetings. The Phils knew that they were gonna trade for Halladay and couldn’t keep Lee. Amaro knew he had to make the deals bang bang so not one day could go by with those two on the same team and make the city go wild. And on top of that, Cliff is thinking he is negotiating for a new contract (if you believe him) to top it all off. Moreover, in the event RAJ did want to hold Cliff and shop him, he would have been CRUCIFIED by every Phillies fan for trying to get rid of him. The PR backlash would have been horrific. So, the deal was done, the way it was done. To make it appear as if the two deals were contingent, which almost everyone NOT on this site (the “golden middle”) still believes to this day. The process was not perfect by any means. In fact, it was downright painful. Here’s to hoping one of the prospects pan out.

    The Dipsy

    The Dipsy

54. George G. Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Halladay won’t give up 5 ER to the Yankees and pull off a lucky win like Lee did, I’m sure.

55. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Dipsy- With respect as well the baseball rumormill is so over-saturated in the off-season you have a very good idea of what bluechippers are available where if not by virtue of several big clubs making clear they aren’t parting with certain guys. The Yankees weren’t shopping and both the Sox and Angels had balked at sending top prospects to Toronto, they weren’t going to send them here.

    I get the idea of floating him out there but when the prospects with the best suitors weren’t giving to give anywhere near what Seattle was prepared to give his value wouldn’t have increased sitting there with all the negatives because of his contract situation. Rentals are not sexy in December.

56. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    Plus most of these GMs are friends who’ve worked together in one place or another and are always seen on their cells, there’s no doubt Amaro had a couple of conversations but already had a pretty good idea of realistic trade scenario’s. I think he was decisive looking at the total package though I can understand how some would view his actions as impulsive.

57. Chuck Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    Yeah…these guys do their “due diligence” AHEAD of time…and when it seems like the right time to make the deal…then they do it.

    And RAJ doesn’t mess around. I like that about him.

    Maybe sometimes it could backfire….but I think more often than not in this environment you have to move pretty fast to get anything done. There are some exceptions but this wasn’t one of them.

58. John Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    It would be interesting to know if Ruben still would’ve moved on Halladay had Cliff accepted his offer. It seems like the Phils have had a strict policy of not signing pitchers to contracts longer than 3 years, I have a sneaking suspicion Cliff wanted more years. I also agree with Dipsy on the timing being critical in avoiding an overly outraged fanbase. Kendrick and Contreras looked sharp today. I’m actually kind of excited to see how Moyer looks, seems like he has rehabbed nicely.

59. Don M Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    so The Dipsy is now floating something of a conspiracy theory, that instead of talking with all teams . . . the Phillies operated a back-door trade, all organized by Pat Gillick (who works with the Phillies still) . . . talking only with the Mariners, and the result of this secret trade has you believe that the Phillies also had Cliff Lee STOLEN from them, with little to no value in return?

    …
    And you also believe that eventhough the Yankees, RedSox, and Angels (the teams with the money to sign/resign the likes of Halladay and Lee).. eventhough they wouldn’t give up their top prospects for Halladay or Lee at the 2009 trade deadline . . . that they would’ve been willing to give up those prospects in the 2009 OFFSEASON . for the same pitcher, for less time??

    … am I following you correctly here?

60. Don M Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    John… no need for “suspicion … Cliff Lee was said to be seeking

    “At least 5 years”
    and
    “a C.C. Sabathia type deal”

    both of those are WAY more than the 3 years, $60 Million the Phillies offered. He wanted to test the Free Agent market. . that was well-known.. (can’t blame him for it… and can’t blame the Phillies for bringing in a better pitcher that wanted to sign a 3-year deal)

61. Andrew Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    See me in 2014 crybabies.
    I am tired of this.

62. Paujoe Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 5:12 pm

    Gotta keep an eye on the extra year on these deals. If no second year for moyer they keep lee. The ibanez 3rd year and no trade clause means we lose werth.

63. The Dipsy Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    Don, cmon dude. Its not a conspiracy theory. Perhaps, RAJ did inquire at the meetings as to suitors for Lee. I would suspect that if he did we would have heard about it. Dontchathink? “Phillies shopping Lee at Winter Meetings!”. And please don’t tell me that these guys are so good at being mum cuz they’re not. In any event, I have no problem with the prospects we got back from Seattle, especially in light of the bag of bolts we gave the Indians. Also Don, by the end of the season, Cliff Lee had become a certified post season stud after his W.S. performance so maybe the Yanks/Sox/Angels etc. would have parted with some talent. At this point, I don’t really care. I think that the three teams had it all 80% done by the time they broke from the meetings. And they kept it quiet cause if they didn’t it would have fallen apart. I am not being accusatory or implying that the wool was pulled over anyone’s eyes if Gillick had in effect put it together. Good for him. We have Halladay and thirty-whatever other teams don’t.

    The Dipsy

64. George Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    Dipsy: With all due respect, you are claiming that no one knows what the Phils could have gotten in the way of prospects, had they waited. Given this argument, how can YOU know that they could have done better, which seems to be what you are saying?

65. George Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    The Dipsy: My last post went up after your qualifier. I guess you are just floating ideas, and not condemning the trade.

    Personally, I think the Phils did about as well as they could have under any circumstances, and better than could have been expected given the poor return the Indians got for Lee and Francisco. If anything went wrong, it’s not because of Ruben Amaro, but is because of the lack of value placed on Lee by other teams.

66. The Dipsy Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    George – I am saying that I have no idea what anyone else offered the Phils, if anything. What I am saying is that perhaps, if the Phillies were just giving Lee the same value he had at the deadline, and that armed with this information they assessed him at the same value after the season, that maybe they should have asked around to see if he had become a little more valuable after his performance in the Series. Maybe he had, maybe he hadn’t. Maybe Lee was worth even less. Who knows? The only way you find out is to ask. And I’m not sure they did. I just want to feel good that they tried to extract max value under the circumstances.

    The Dipsy

67. Chuck Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    Like I said earlier….GMs do their homework and “due diligence” AHEAD of time. RAJ had a pretty good idea that Seattle was a good match. But I’m also sure he at least TALKED to other teams.

    The bottom line is Cliff Lee said that he wanted “at least 5 years and CC Sabathia kind of money” He can say whatever he wants about being “blind-sided”.

    The point is that once he/his agent made that known….RAJ made this deal. And nwe’re better off IN THE LONG RUN for it.

68. Don M Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 5:59 pm

    This is seriously getting re-god-damn-diculous . . . . we are honestly sitting here reading posts claiming that the Phillies didn’t check out offers for Cliff Lee?

    based on the simple fact that there what, weren’t stories written about it ahead of time??

    and we’re accusing the Front Office of taking low ball offers, instead of being pulling off the same crazy-smart trades that they’ve done in the past, including Lidge, and Cliff Lee in the first place . . .

    lets give them a little more credit..

    Cliff Lee isn’t the world’s greatest pitcher.. in reality, hell even in fantasy land.. he’s probably not seen as Top 10. … and with his upcoming MONSTER FREE AGENT year looming.. the same teams interested in his services (the contending, and free spending teams.. Yanks, Sox, Angels, etc.. ) can all have him for the right $$$.. and keep the prospects that they’ll need to build around a FA of that high a price tag anyway

    people are making way too much of this, and not using common sense..

    to accuse, or question the Front Office of not seeking the best possible return is borderline retarded (sorry, Sarah Palin).

    We STOLE Cliff Lee from the Indians, because his value wasn’t that high.. but people then expect Lee to be flipped for a HIGHER return??

69. Don M Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    The Dipsy . . . you’re better than this.

70. NJ Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 6:03 pm

    To be honest I think we got more in context that we traded for Lee… Am probs in the minority there

71. The Dipsy Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 6:17 pm

    Don – Don’t patronize me, please. Swear, belittle, ridicule, talk about my mom, but please……. don’t patronize. Thank you, sir. You know who is really to blame here? The FREAKIN’ BEERMAN! It was done. It was over. The sleepless night and cold sweats. The temporary sexual dysfunction…and I stress “temporary”. The fights with my girl. The staying home from work in my bathrobe. It was over! I was free. But bringing up this topic is liking poking a sleeping animal with a stick. I just can’t lay off it! Please let it die today. The day Roy threw his first pitch while swaddled in Phillie red. The mantra to keep myself sane …….”The Doctor is in. The Doctor is in. The Doctors is in”. I’ve got my stethascope (sp) and scrubs ready for opening day. Let the healing begin for the love of God!

    The Dipsy

72. Chuck Says:
    March 4th, 2010 at 9:43 pm

    It’s 9:30 at night. I’ve been busy for the past several hours with “house” stuff. And I’m reading some of this stuff and it’s utterly priceless.

    Dipsy…for as wrong as you are/were about this whole Cliff Lee thing …your post has me in stitches….funny stuff (hope I’m not being patronizing)

    Seriously, though…we’ve GOT TO MOVE THE F ON…because Don’s right…it’s gotten SOOOO ridiculous already.

    This day starts with this borderline moronic article by the BEERMAN….blabbering on nonsensically about something that should have been put to rest WEEKS ago…

    ……and mercifully, it ends (at least for me) with the comforting thought that ROY FREAKIN’ HALLADAY pitched today like he was in mid-season form.

73. Money Mike Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 5:00 am

    While this isn’t “news” anymore, the argument is just as valid.

    If Hamels fails to bounce back, or if father time catches up to Moye, or if Happ hits a sophmore slump, or if Joe Blanton returns to 4.5+ ERA form, someone like Lee softens that blow. All of these are very possible, but to send out Halladay and Lee every 2 out of 5 days, it makes life easier if the other 3 days are pitched by Hope, Maybe, and Someday.

    The argument that the prospects acquired will be ready in a few years when more money will be needed, then why not get prospects out of the draft, 2 of them to be exact, or a July deadline deal. The July deal for Teixeira a few years back had Elvis Andrus and Neftali Feliz in it, two of the games best prospects. July is more expensive than December. Better for the seller.

    I know my team, the Mets, if contending would be inclined to make a deal for a pitcher to slot behind Santana. Why? Because Santana/Lee in the playoffs is money in the bank. The Phillies could’ve had money in the bank, now it looks like they could be a couple dollars short.

    And please don’t start replying with “Mets SUCK” thread. Lets stay on topic.

    And I’ve heard it all before.

74. NJ Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 6:36 am

    I have a close friend who’s a Mets fan and the last thing you want to do is contend and start playing the market, apparently there’s some good prospects on the way behind F-Mart and his outfield clown like hilarities but there’s too much trash on that roster and not enough role players.

    I think if Cole hits rock bottom, Happ has a softmore slump, Lidge blows more saves than a tranny working out of Port Authority etc… Then Lee wouldn’t mean a thing, the Phils season would be done.

75. The Dipsy Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 7:44 am

    Is it crazy to think that if Cole is just middling around come July 31 at 11-11, 4.22 and Cliff is Cliff, you just offer Cole for Cliff and a little more? Cliff will sign with the Phils for 4/66 and there you have it. Your 1-2. It would make sense for the Mariners because they have a potential stud at a great price through 2011 and it makes sense for us because we have no time to wait for Cole to de-princess himself in the middle of a World Series run. History has shown us that NOTHING is too strange to happen.

    The Dipsy

76. Chuck Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 8:29 am

    Dipsy….

    Dude, get this straight….THE PHILLIES ARE NOT GOING TO TRADE COLE HAMELS!!

    Cole has TOO MUCH POTENTIAL…..OVER THE LONG-HAUL….for them to trade him.

    Why are you even suggesting something that has ZERO chance of happening??

    I don’t know which of your ideas is worse….obtaining Jermaine Dye….or trading Cole Hamels.

77. The Dipsy Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 9:35 am

    Chuck – Were you one of the guys at the beginning of last year that told me that the Phillies landing Roy Halladay had ZERO chance of happening and wondering why were we wasting time talking about it??? Also, remember – graveyards are filled with guys that had “great potential”. Who do you like better today – Hamels or Lee?

    The Dipsy

78. psujoe Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 9:51 am

    Cole Hamels is going to have an excellent season. Bank on it. Heard yesterday that he didn’t hit 90 mph last year until May. He’s ready 3rd pitch or not expect a solid #2 in the rotation.

79. Don M Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 10:12 am

    in 2007:
    Hamels won 15 games, 183.1 Inn Pitched, 177 Ks, 3.39 ERA, 1.12 WHIP

    in 2008:
    Hamels won 14 games, 227.1 Innings Pitched, 196 K’s, 3.09 ERA, 1.08 WHIP
    (not counting the 35 in the playoffs = 262 Innings Pitched)

    thanks to winning the World Series, and having a dead arm…
    in 2009:
    Hamels won 10 games, 193.2 Innings Pitched, 168 K’s, 4.32 ERA, 1.29 WHIP

    Even that isn’t as terrible as people want to believe.. it was a down year, after an AMAZING year in 2008

    There is way too much “what have you done for me lately” . . that now has people suggesting TRADING COLE HAMELS??? …. He’s 26 years old and already has a more impressive resume than 99% of the pitchers in baseball today..

    I wouldn’t be shocked if he has a better year than Cliff Lee… its about time our offense starts giving him some run support and gets him to that 20-Game Winner plateu

80. Chuck Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 10:14 am

    Answer to the 1st question: I said it had ZERO chance of happening at the TRADE DEADLINE.

    Answer to the second question: Hamels…..and I’ll tell you why…..

    Cole Hamels showed us 2 years ago what he’s made of. He, for all the reasons stated, fell off last year. With the development of the third pitch, a more focused off-season, working along-side Roy,…..he will bouce back this year.

    He’s young and can only get A LOT better. Cole Hamels is a future Cy Young. And….probably to sign him long- term, he will be cheaper than Cliff Lee.

    I really don’t see Cole Hamels going to the “graveyard”.

81. The Dipsy Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 10:29 am

    Chuck – I hope you’re right. All things being equal, and I mean equal (salary, length of contract), I’ll take Lee at 31 over Hamels at 26. I realize that reasonable minds can differ but Lee has won a Cy Young and he displayed a giant, low hanging Balzac in the Series last year. He is, quite simply, a horse. Hamels is not….yet. I will be more impressed when he puts his make up kit away. Maybe Cole spends the rest of his career being Watson to someone’s Holmes, thats fine. As long as our Holmes (not Johnny) is Roy Halladay.

    The Dipsy

82. Chuck Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 10:33 am

    You’re praising Cliff Lee for what he did in the postseason last year….and that’s cool. He was awesome.

    But so many people forget what Cole did the year before. Actually, Cole’s postseason performance in 2008 was as good, if not better, than Cliff’s last year.

    Just because he didn’t “nonchalantely” catch a pop-up at the pitcher’s mound doesn’t make him any less of a “cool cat” like Cliff.

83. Don M Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 10:37 am

    The Dipsy is becomming GEOFF (the OLD Geoff, not the new, postive Geoff).. more and more with each passing minute

    There is no way that you can honestly, actually believe any of the crazy sh1t you’ve been typing lately..

    I think you’re just doing it to get a rise out of everyone.. but even if that’s the case.. this act is getting old.

    How about this though for FACTS

    Cole Hamels, career 3.67 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, .244 Batting avg against,
    8.4 “K’s-per-9″

    Cliff Lee, career 3.97 ERA, 1.30 WHIP, .263 Batting avg against
    6.8 “K’s per 9″

84. Don M Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 10:45 am

    this is the kinda stuff that made Jimmy Rollins 100% honest when he said stuff about our fans being FRONTRUNNERS

    Cole Hamels freakin carried our team to a World Series title… the year after has a dead arm, and a down season..

    and now people already forget what he did, and would rather b!tch about the fact that he does commercials and stuff . . . but Howard’s subway commercial, Utley EAS commercial, etc. . . they’re fine.. no big deal

    Hamels would be the ACE on MOST teams in baseball.. and he’s as good a #2 as you’ll find in the game..

    If given the chance to have both players from now until they retire, probably every single GM in baseball would take Hamels, because he’s younger, and has a chance to dominate longer..

    Lee was great when he was here, but Hamels was just as good in 2008…

    and im positive that when he dominates again this year, everyone will be right back on his bandwagon . . . because the majority of our fans really are FRONTRUNNERS

85. Chuck Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 10:46 am

    Yeah, Geoff HAS turned over a new leaf. Must have found religion or something..

    _____

    Pretty telling numbers, Cole vs. Cliff. And that’s not base on just ONE season for Cole (because the argument can be made that Cliff is older and has more experience)

    Cole Hamels has has several good seasons…..and last year wasn’t TERRIBLE either.

    I really think we haven’t seen the very best of this guy yet.

86. The Dipsy Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 10:46 am

    Don – I’m not trying to be a firestarter here. Firstly, I think its fair to say the Lee is a “late bloomer”. If you accept that why don’t we focus on the last three years lets say. Over the last three, Cliff is the better pitcher. His age is not prohibitive. Loom at the stats over the last three years and then factor in the Cliff pitches in the AL and then tell me what you come up with.

    The Dipsy

87. Don M Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 11:02 am

    or… you could show the numbers you want to talk about

88. RichieAllen Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 12:40 pm

    Don M for president!!

89. psujoe Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    Who is this Cliff Lee guy people keep talking about?

    Why not offer Biemel a mil to help sure up the pen?

90. NJ Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    Beimel would be terrible, was discussing this with a Mets friend who’s getting giddy over him. The way I’d describe him as someone you get when you don’t want to lose so many game not a guy you want around if you planning on playing baseball not golf in October. I don’t know the guy but everything written out there suggests he’s a money first guy and his stuffs pretty poor.

    Trading Hamels would be insane, his value it as its very lowest and he’s shown a renewed commitment to preparation that should pay off especially since he isn’t coming off a 270 inning year.

    Lee was never going to fit into the Phils long-term plans, only a stones throw away from a Championship and almost repeating it would have been foolhardy to prioritise the later. This team can be right at the very top for a decade if whoevers running the show doesn’t piss away the talent and let the team get old in a hurry.

91. psujoe Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    Thanks NJ. Was wondering why nobody signed him by now. Knowing that pass.

92. NJ Says:
    March 5th, 2010 at 8:56 pm

    It just amazes me sometimes how some guys continually price themselves out of getting into a good situation to get the pay-off down the road with a real deal, you see so many guys take a cheap deal to build up their stock and then you see a guy like Beimel who seems to be a broken record getting every last cent he can instead of proving he’s worth a multi-year deal…

93. Bob R Says:
    March 6th, 2010 at 7:22 pm

    I love Ruben and he did a good job on this one but when he had a shot at going for the knock out punch he didn’t. Like the man says-with a sold out CBP every night money should not be a concern-and even if Lee walked after this year we still have some draft picks coming. Halladay and Lee with Hamels and Blanton and Happ with this offense would have been amazing. You can never have enough pitching and aces are not that easy to get-we could have had two and maybe three if Cole returns to form. Maybe Halladay will be enough but it sure would have been nicer if Ruben took a shot and erred on the side of having more ace pitchers than less.

94. Harry lives forever! Says:
    March 8th, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    I absolutely loved cliff lee. He was awesome, he was a philly guy, had that fightin’ phils mentality and is a legend in phillies history now. Buuuut and a BIG but, maybe the phillies are looking to pick up cliff lee after this year. He is a free agent again and if the phillies do not sign werth and moyer is out, freeing up more money, It just might not surprise me that they try to scoop Lee up again at the end of 2010. Just my thought.

    Anybody else feel this way? Is it a possibility? I certainly hope so!

95. philsgirl Says:
    March 16th, 2010 at 1:44 am

    Ok, being away from computer usage and catching up on a week or so of posts kinda takes one out of the loop, so I’m sure this won’t even be read, (maybe for the best, but this darn article gave me finger diarrhea..). My views already known on the subject, I have only one thing to add – earlier in the thread, I read something I found a bit philosophically concerning in Don M.’s post: “since we JUST won the World Series.. there shouldn’t be this sense of “ALL IN” that so many of our fans have..” I know the term “wanting to stay competitive” gets bandied about a lot by supporters of the trade, but I’ve got to say, that seems far from a competitive attitude and a bit of a shocker. Don M., I don’t always agree with you but always respect you, so you (or others of like mind) gotta tell me, why should the fact that we raised the trophy in ‘08 impact the Phils organization trying its *best* to win in 2010? In fact, to the contrary, shouldn’t the relatively fleeting time when you have a team with the highest *recent/current* potential for a WS win be *just* the time to make the biggest push for a repeat? A statement like that is akin to an Olympic athlete (who also deals with windows of opportunity not completely unlike ballteams with rarely-seen combinations of chemistry/talent) saying “well, I just won a gold medal last Olympics, I don’t need to try my best this year..” It’s the ol’ bird-in-the-hand being worth way more than two (or three) in the bush league; the further out you get, the more variables come into play. Farm-team prospects hoped to contribute in a few years may never have even made it to the majors, constituents of opposing teams obviously don’t stay static, and certainly our core will be entirely different. Sure, none of us wants the Phils in last place in a few years, but let’s not get started on what defines staying “competitive”, ‘cause that’s a whole ‘nother thread. And, no, I’m not a “front-runner”- I’ve been a fan of the Phils and only the Phils for decades- precisely why my take is to maximize your potential while you have the best chance to grab the ring again.
    Oh, and thanks to Beerman out there, for reminding me once again of the sting of missing a potential team best.
    **I reserve the right to post some or all of this in a future thread if it goes unread and is not totally extraneous at the time…**

96. Junk Removal Business Says:
    June 26th, 2010 at 9:38 pm

    Great blog. Lots of websites like this cover subjects that aren’t found in magazines. I don’t know how we got on 15 years ago with just newspapers and magazines.

97. Computer Repair Says:
    November 10th, 2010 at 6:28 am

    Hello

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